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Viewing Topic "The FAMAS is over."
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Posted by: xeneize The french army is seeking a new assault rifle to replace the FAMAS and will be a foreign design, France don`t have industry to build the rifle any more.
Posted on: 31/05/2014 01:52:00

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Posted by: tarawa90
Total Posts: 88
Joined Date: Wednesday, 8 August 2012
Of course the French don't have the industry to manufacture a rifle. The only thing they manufacture for their army are white flags!
Posted on: 31/05/2014 05:46:00
Posted by: MTG
Total Posts: 30
Joined Date: Wednesday, 21 December 2011
Tarawa I hope you are ready for a counter argument in the form of an essay from our resident franophile Amaral!
Posted on: 31/05/2014 13:15:00
Posted by: jacdaw
Total Posts:
Joined Date: Saturday, 6 June 2020
Why not the British SA80 or, in other view, the israeli TAVOR? Both are very effective and quite proper developed to multipurpose operations...
Posted on: 31/05/2014 15:20:00
Posted by: GI Gene
Total Posts: 74
Joined Date: Saturday, 7 February 2009
At least France still has their own aerospace industry. All the other European countries have to pool their resources together to produce a plane.
Posted on: 31/05/2014 15:47:00
Posted by: xeneize
Total Posts: 75
Joined Date: Friday, 18 January 2013
Tarawa. You must wait the rage of Amaral.
Posted on: 31/05/2014 16:26:00
Posted by: Paintybeard
Total Posts: 363
Joined Date: Monday, 4 February 2013
Gosh, I'm looking forward to this. Shall we all save a bit of time by just draping ourselves in the Tricolour and singing a few choruses of "La Marseilles"? (And perhaps pretending that the Resistance had 20 million members.)
Posted on: 31/05/2014 19:04:00
Posted by: Neil Grant
Total Posts: 13
Joined Date: Friday, 27 March 2015
THWoods - nobody can buy the SA80, since the production line was dissassembled some years ago. If you wanted any more, you'd have to set up the new line from scratch. This was why (for instance) the UK police adopted the G36 a few years back (well, not the only reason, but you know what I mean)
Posted on: 31/05/2014 22:29:00
Posted by: 1830
Total Posts: 17
Joined Date: Friday, 24 May 2013
Hello: tarawa90: read this post http://www.ospreypublishing.com/forum/aviation/4240/ And not mentioned in that post is the Dassault Raffale. How many countries can design a 4.5 generation jet fighter?
Posted on: 31/05/2014 23:19:00
Posted by: xeneize
Total Posts: 75
Joined Date: Friday, 18 January 2013
Neil. I was in Gattwick airport in April, the pólice have the G-36C, i asked to take a photo, but him did say "No", for the way the pólice in the cabinets Room didn't have problem , they carried MP-5 and Glocks
Posted on: 01/06/2014 00:44:00
Posted by: Tosk
Total Posts:
Joined Date: Saturday, 6 June 2020
Tavor is an excellent rifle but I don't see the French buying israeli stuff...think they should go with eiher Beretta ARX or HK G36.
Posted on: 01/06/2014 01:26:00
Posted by: fletc
Total Posts: 4
Joined Date: Thursday, 19 November 2009
That's old news. Apparently one of the runners is Australian made, Thales F90. Which kind of makes since as Thales is a French company that bought ADI. The Australian Government controlled company that produced the F88, the Australian version of the Steyr AUG. http://www.lithgowarms.com/the-f90/ The F90 is the Australian evolution of the Steyr AUG and is apparently superior Steyr's own current version the AUG A3. The F88 series of rifles are not overly popular in the Australian military, although reliable. The current M203 grenade launcher version, is a barrel heavy joke for example. All SF elements of the Australian military refuse to use the weapon. Including the Australian military's version of the F90 that is currently entering service. All in all it probably wouldn't be a bad choice for the French, as a lot of issues, i.e a new light weight grenade launcher, seem to have been approved. Although personally I don't think they will adopt it.
Posted on: 01/06/2014 03:09:00
Posted by: Amaral
Total Posts: 200
Joined Date: Friday, 8 March 2013
Did I miss anything?
Posted on: 01/06/2014 05:35:00
Posted by: Amaral
Total Posts: 200
Joined Date: Friday, 8 March 2013
As fletc said, this is old news. The rifle has over 30 years of service, production ceased four years ago. The main problems are the budget cuts the French - together with the British and all European NATO - are suffering. The Withe Book of 2008 was made before the crisis and it predicted for a heavy reformulation of the French military, making the transition from a mainly conscript for to a 100% professional one. The crises caught the French military by surprise and generated a lot of discussion, as the alocated money is not enough to cover the projected expenses and a new White Book had to be made by 2013. This new book, taking into consideration the British unpleasent surprises, will try to solve the déficit noted in the French budget. This problem is really serious, as the French budget is too low compared to the French commitments and many senior officers publicly complained. The commanders of the three armed forces (army, navy and air force) even threatened to resign if the president do not back off in cutting what the politicians always see as "just fat". The British had an abrupt surprise with their cuttings and its impact in the general capacities of the military. The French generals do not want this to happen with them - as they cannot count on the Americans as the Brits can - are very worried. As for the FAMAS, rumors that the French are interested in replacing it goes far back into 2009. The Air Force retired their FAMAS in the special forces in favor of the HK416 (a German M4, so to speak, judged too expensive for general issue as it cost the double of the FAMAS). Production of the FAMAS ceased in 2010 but only in 2013 the French assumed they would hold Request For Proposals for rifles to take place in 2014, so as to start receiving the new rifles by 2015. Back to the budgetary constrainsts. The French military budget is set by the Loi de Programme Militaire (LPM - Military Program's Law), and this document is "saving" whatever it can, whenever it can, no matter the cost. One politician decided the ammunition of the FAMAS should be manufactured abroad to save costs and this caused more problems than it solved - if it did solve anything. The F3 (Mark III) cartridges were manufactured in France (Le Mans, 220 km south west from Paris), but some dumb-ass politicians decided to relocate cartridge production abroad. Foreign F3 cartridges have caused several problems. Soldiers have been injured during exercises, some of them in the face.The F3 cartridges have been forbidden, and now army has to use the older F1 cartridges which are no longer manufactured in France, and not adapted to the rifling of the barrel, so, these cartridges are made in the Arab Emirates (ADCOM Military Industries); with reduced reliability. Men like retired General Vincent Desportes have been very outspoken but the real surpres was when General Ract-Madoux, not only active service, but current CEMAT (Chef d’état-major de l’armée de Terre, Chief of Staff of the Army) openly complained about the cuts; pointing to the fact that the cuts predicted by the LPM undermines the capacity of the military to attend an urgent intervention (and he did say that before the two interventions in Mali and the Central African Republic). With all those problems, the CEMA (senior to the CEMAT, as he rules over the three armed forces) Admiral Edouard Guillaud said: "There is no more industry in France, but the Belgians, Germans, Spaniards, Italians - and perhaps even the Koreans - manufacture this type of equipment. We know that the Germans will replace theirs." The minimum number of assault rifles to be produced in order to remain affordable is too high, at least 300,000, and the rifle itself would be still expensive. France can’t produce a new assault rifle because they can’t afford the high costs of R&D. That's why it is going to be a foreign one: there is not time and no money to produce a new one. But aside from the problems, nothing is yet defined. The French were thinking of buying the F90, as of Eurosatory 2012, but now they seen to be looking towards the Belgians (FN), Germans (HK) and Italians (Beretta). There is a lot of misinformation in English-speaking blogs, one of these even claiming the FAMAS was a disaster and showing incorrect information; even the years were wrong. I won't translate French material because it would be too long and too toilsome, but just to correct some misinformation. In this site there is a picture of a French paratrooper using the FN SCAR. That's because he is an operator of the BFST. It does not prove anything, they have a miriad of other rifles. http://www.strikehold.net/2012/08/07/france-replacing-the-famous-famas/ The F90, for those not acquainted with it: http://servir-et-defendre.com/viewtopic.php?f=499&t=10279 The European problem: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htworld/articles/20140506.aspx
Posted on: 01/06/2014 05:35:00
Posted by: Hubert==!
Total Posts: 3
Joined Date: Thursday, 17 December 2009
I wonder if the French army realised that the 5.56 mm Cartridge is too small for any firefight outside towns (see Osprey Raid on Takur Ghar)
Posted on: 01/06/2014 09:13:00
Posted by: Württemberger
Total Posts: 1
Joined Date: Wednesday, 2 September 2009
exactly. swapping a 5.56mm rifle for another one won't solve anything.
Posted on: 01/06/2014 13:23:00
Posted by: xeneize
Total Posts: 75
Joined Date: Friday, 18 January 2013
From Vietnam all know than the 5.56 MM don't have punch, but all armies take the it,(The soviets the 5.45). The old and reliable AKM and M14 are more valid than ever.
Posted on: 01/06/2014 16:04:00
Posted by: Nick Hunter
Total Posts: 55
Joined Date: Wednesday, 8 May 2013
Ah, the dear old "the grass is always greener" problem. Yup, everyone agrees that 5.56 has neither the punch nor the range of 7.62x51. Now let's remember that it also has too much recoil to be controllable in a rifle of sensible weight, and that it weighs 2-3 times as much per round. Given that what i hear from the guys in the feild is a) they need as much ammo as they can carry, and if anything would prefer more and b) with body armour, elecronics and grenades, they are already maxed out on the weight they can carry, to the point that we're getting exhaustion casualties on routine patrols. Ergo, 7.62x51 v 5.56 isn't a choice between a bad thing and a good one, but a choice between two different sets of problems. What we want is something that hits like 7.62, but weighs the same as 5.56mm, or ideally less. Well, unfortunately, you can't have that. (BTW, don't even think about 7.62x39; improvements to body armour in the last decade means that it is simply no longer effective against first world armies, which is one of the odder bits of casualty analysis coming out of afghanistan; we are effectively simply not taking casualties from small arms fire)
Posted on: 01/06/2014 19:20:00
Posted by: Nick Hunter
Total Posts: 55
Joined Date: Wednesday, 8 May 2013
Note that i don't know what the answer to the above is, and most people are too busy trying to fix current problems to give it much proper thought. however, it's fairly obvious that there are three main possibilities 1) The first option is a technological fix. You CAN have something that hits like 7.62 but weights like 5.56, but it won't look much like current rifles. We're probably looking at something caseless (to save the weight of all that cartridge brass) and firing a flechette round (flat trajectory for range, good armour penetration) that fragments after penetration (necessary for 100% energy dump rather than shoot-throughs, which are a problem with normal flechettes). All do-able with current tech, but don't expect it within 10 years even if we went for a crash programme. 2) The second option is a tactical fix. Accept that 5.56mm rifles are essentially not useful offensively, and just plan on using them for close range personal defence and houseclearing. Essentially, your riflemen become local security for whatever you issue each fire team as its "real" weapon. What you think that should be is up to you - could be a 7.62 GPMG, an XM25 style grenade rifle, or a laser designator for smart ordnance launched from base, depending on taste and budget 3) the third option is change the paradigm. the limits on infantry weapons are what infantry can carry and use.....but given the recent US work on powered exoskeletons etc, maybe those aren't fixed limits. Don't expect it soon, but maybe our infantryman of the year 2040 has a 50 calibre browning as his personal weapon :-)
Posted on: 01/06/2014 20:03:00
Posted by: Württemberger
Total Posts: 1
Joined Date: Wednesday, 2 September 2009
you're overthinking this. 7.62x39 russian isn't the caliber for the future but it is the caliber of the present. first world powers don't fight each other and when they do, small arms won't matter anyways. terrorists, insurgents or whatever umbrella term you prefer, don't wear body armor. there's also a couple new cartridges tested at the moment with various results, .300 aac blackout seems to finally go in the right direction but still needs more actual combat experience for final considerations. it might also be worthwhile looking into the calibers china uses, though i'm not sure if they'd even consider them for export at all. even more far-fetched, but a look at the original german 7,9x33mm or the short-lived but intruiging czech 7.62x45mm.
Posted on: 01/06/2014 20:35:00
Posted by: Nick Hunter
Total Posts: 55
Joined Date: Wednesday, 8 May 2013
First world powers may not fight each other.....but second rate powers are generally using at least the small ticket kit from the first world powers. Mexico, ukraine etc may not be able to buy stealth aircraft and air defence nets, but they can buy small arms and body armour off the shelf. We have been extremely lucky that we have only had to fight barely-equipped insurgents in afghanistan and iraq, rather than a "proper" army, but we'd be damned fools if we assume this happy state of affairs will continue. Potentially, we need to be looking at threats that are reasonably plausible, not just those that are happening right now. For US forces, I'd suggest this means (as a minimum) intervention against a nuclear armed iran, peacekeeping in a collapsed mexico, and direct combat against russian "proxies" with the latest russian kit in ukraine or poland. Note - these are not "likely" scenarios, but they are "possible" ones. While we can tweak cartridges to achieve slightly better compromises, we've functionally reached the end of the road for conventional metallic case cartridges for small arms. None of the compromises give enough improvement to justify costs of conversion, and the US effectively said that 20 years ago, with the ACR programme. Note, incidentally, that 3 of the 4 finalists submitted even that far back weren't metalliccartridge weapons, and the one that was (essentially, an upgraded M16) explicitly had low cost as its selling point.
Posted on: 01/06/2014 21:00:00

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