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Viewing Topic "Duel Arado 196 Vs Short Sunderland"
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Posted by: DAZ REICH I used these two aircraft to start the debate for a hypothetical Duel title, did these two seaplanes ever see combat against each other, i'm sure I had a model kit when I was a kid of them both on having a scrap lol. Think it would be an interesting title, two very different types of seaplane, both well armed in their own way, could cover where they were based and what support they had, plus the usual tech specs for each aircraft, or is there other water based seaplanes that might of seen combat against each other that would make a good title, eg, Emily Vs Catalina etc.
Posted on: 20/06/2013 07:03:00

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Posted by: AdamC
Total Posts: 263
Joined Date: Thursday, 22 January 2009
Hi Daz, I’m not sure about hypothetical duels if I’m honest; I think you are getting into the dangerous area of counterfactual history. However I have a sneaking suspicion that the Ar 196 and the Sunderland did meet in combat either over the Bay of Biscay, North Sea or the Aegean. I can’t think of any specific examples off the top of my head but I’ll check my notes when I get home (I have a fair collection of accounts of odd/mismatched air combats during WWII – US Navy B-24 Vs Bv 222 in 43 over the Biscay has to be one of my favourites), I seem to recall an account of a Sunderland engaging in air-to-air combat with a CANT Z.501 over the med in late 40 early 41 and winning if that’s any interest to you.
Posted on: 20/06/2013 09:42:00
Posted by: DAZ REICH
Total Posts: 69
Joined Date: Monday, 25 February 2013
I like the sound of the BV flying boat, I love those and remember building one when a kid, if you can find more info that would be good, feel free to hijack this thread anyone with your ideas, I said hypothetical as I was not sure if they actually ever met in combat or not.
Posted on: 20/06/2013 15:31:00
Posted by: AdamC
Total Posts: 263
Joined Date: Thursday, 22 January 2009
Sure Daz, I have the whole story. It occurred on 22nd October 1943 and involved a Bv222 flying out of Biscarosse and a PB4Y-1 of VB-105 (BuNo 63917, side number B-2) piloted by Lt T. R. Evert. The two giants basically came across each other by chance as they broke cloud cover and immediately opened fire on their opposite number. The BV222 was damaged (some sources say seriously) and had a crewman killed but managed to make it back to base and land safely. The Liberator wasn’t so lucky and took the worst of the German fire, going down in flames into the Bay of Biscay. Supposedly the German co-pilot took several photos of the Liberators demise but I’ve never seen them personally (they are supposed to be in a private collection). The Luftwaffe, for some reason, recorded the kill as being against “a Lancaster” despite the co-pilots photos clearly showing a US Navy Liberator, this accounts for the occasional reference you see to a Lancaster being lost in combat with a BV222. If you can wait till I get home and check my notes properly I can probably tell you which BV222 it was as well.
Posted on: 20/06/2013 16:03:00
Posted by: MarkL
Total Posts: 33
Joined Date: Thursday, 6 October 2011
I'm working my way through Ocean Sentinel: The Short Sunderland by Air Britain which has a complete listing of Sunderland losses and found at least one case of a Sunderland shot down by an Ar196. However most Sunderland losses to aircraft were the result of the Ju88Cs of V/KG40. Chris Goss' book 'Bloody Biscay' does a great job of covering this campaign and a new paperback is due out shortly, if not already available.
Posted on: 20/06/2013 17:00:00
Posted by: DAZ REICH
Total Posts: 69
Joined Date: Monday, 25 February 2013
Some great ideas for a Duel there chaps keep em coming, didn't the BV222 have a 20mm MGFF cannon in the nose turret, that must of help pack a punch.
Posted on: 20/06/2013 19:03:00
Posted by: GI Gene
Total Posts: 59
Joined Date: Saturday, 7 February 2009
This gives me an idea for an anniversary Duel title or simply a Duel special edition that covers these types of unusual face offs. It could be called "Unexpected Duels" or "Unusual Duels" and would be a compilation of 5-10 of these duels (if there are a lot to choose from). The color plates would depict the most interesting ones such as the B-24 vs BV 222.
Posted on: 20/06/2013 20:04:00
Posted by: AdamC
Total Posts: 263
Joined Date: Thursday, 22 January 2009
GI Gene – That’s a really interesting idea there mate! I like the sound of a sort of one off compendium of odd air-to-air combats. If you and Daz like that sort of thing here’s a few RAF ones from my notes, how do you like the sound of; 21st September 1939 – Hudson of No 224 Sqn attacked by three Ar68s from either 10./JG72 or 11./JG72. No losses on either side by as far as I know this is only air combat by German biplane fighters in the whole war. 8th October 1939 – Hudson of No 224 Sqn attacks and shoots down a Do 18D of 2./KuFlGr 506 over the North Sea for the RAF’s first kill by a UK based aircraft. 8th November 1939 – Anson of No 206 Sqn attacks and destroys a He 115 of 1./KuFlGr 106 off Texel. 19th December 1939 – Saro London of No 240 Sqn and a He 111 of I./KG 26 dogfight over the North Sea. The London comes off worst. 27th/28th March 1940 – A No 77 Sqn Whitley strays into neutral Dutch territory and is attacked and shot down by a twin boom Fokker G-1a. 16th May 1940 – Lysander of No 4 Sqn holds its own against during a running battle over France with six Bf 110s claiming one shot down. 8th July 1940 – No 14 Sqn Vickers Wellesley engages in air-to-air combat with an Italian S.81of 10a Squadriglia, 28o Gruppo over East Africa. 11th July 1940 – In what would be today termed “not very PC” an Anson of No 217 Sqn shoots down a Red Cross marked He 59 of Seenotflugkommando 1 over the Channel. 7th November 1940 – Three Wellingtons of No 70 Sqn take on an equal number of Italian CANT Z.506B of 35o Stormo BM floatplanes off the Albanian coast, downing one of them. I’m not going to detail them all but the Iraqi revolt of 1941 is full of odd match ups including a bit of Gladiator on Gladiator action. 9th June 1941 – Hurricanes of No 80 Sqn accounts for two Bloch MB 200s (from EB 3/39) off the Lebanese coast. There are plenty of other unusual combats during the Syrian campaign. 26th August 1941 – a Hurricane of No 261 Sqn bags a Hawker Persian Audax over Iran. 14th December 1941 – Catalina of No 205 Sqn spars with a Mitsubishi G3M (Nell) of the IJNAF’s Mihoro Kokutai over the Gulf of Siam. 20th February 1942 – Hurricane of No 242 Sqn goes head-to-head (literally – the Japanese pilot tried to ram him head on!!!) with a Mitsubishi F1M over Java. 20th August 1942 – A No 5 Sqn Mohawk shoots down a Tachikawa Ki 36 reconnaissance and army co-operation aircraft of the 89th Sentai over Burma. 10th December 1942 – Three No 227 Sqn Beaufighters take on three Bv222s over the Med and both formations loose one each. 22nd January 1943 - Flg Off Thompson with Flg Off White of No 600 Sqn flying a Beaufighter from Setif in Algeria destroyed a huge Piaggio P. 108. 23rd July 1943 - Beaufighter Xs from No 144 Sqn bag a captured French Breguet 521 Bizerte flying boat during a convoy attack over the Med. 8th October 1943 – Halifax of No 58 Sqn has the better of a clash with a Bv222 over Biscay. 27th December 1943 – Spitfires from No 611 Sqn have to shoot down an abandoned and run away B-17 off the British coast. 2nd January 1944 – No 198 Sqn’s Typhoons chase a flock of Bu 131s round the Eiffel Town Benny Hill style, shooting down one and damaging another. 1st April 1944 – No 354 Sqn Liberator engages a 12th Sentai Ki 21 to the west of Ramree Island, both aircraft are damaged after making several passes at each other. 8th April 1944 – In one of the strangest of the strange a No 211 Sqn Beaufighter undertakes a long-range patrol into Siam (Thailand) and shoots down a Thai Curtiss Hawk III biplane fighter!!! MarkL – I’ve got a copy of Bloody Biscay, it’s an excellent book, thoroughly recommended!!! Plenty of odd air-to-air combats in that too!
Posted on: 20/06/2013 22:33:00
Posted by: DAZ REICH
Total Posts: 69
Joined Date: Monday, 25 February 2013
AdamC that is just the kind of thing I want to read about and find out more about, I love WW2 but there only so many Spitfire Vs 109's I can take lol, I need something else, something different and I like every single one of these suggestions, i'm going to see if I can find some bits on the net about them in the meanwhile as they sound very interesting.
Posted on: 21/06/2013 01:20:00
Posted by: AdamC
Total Posts: 263
Joined Date: Thursday, 22 January 2009
Hi Daz, if you want any info on any of these odd-ball engagements let me know, I can provide serial numbers, crew and unit details for most of them and more detailed descriptions of most of the scraps if required. I also have numerous others; the above is just a selection that I quickly picked out of my RAF notes. The USAAF has some equally odd encounters (I can remember P-38 Vs Spanish He 112 being one!!!). In all honesty I doubt any of the above are going to be suitable for their own Duel title as they are, for the most part, one off, chance encounters and many of them represent the only occasion on which the two types met. Also many are very one sided. However, I like GI Gene’s idea of a special compendium of strange aerial engagements. You could lump them all together in that.
Posted on: 21/06/2013 09:33:00
Posted by: DAZ REICH
Total Posts: 69
Joined Date: Monday, 25 February 2013
Your right GI genes idea would be good, I really like the big book specials that Osprey sometimes do, this would suit them just fine, we could do with a private message function on this forum really.
Posted on: 21/06/2013 14:45:00
Posted by: GI Gene
Total Posts: 59
Joined Date: Saturday, 7 February 2009
2nd January 1944 – No 198 Sqn’s Typhoons chase a flock of Bu 131s round the Eiffel Town Benny Hill style, shooting down one and damaging another. Now that is something I would like to see in a color plate! Thank you for the support of my idea guys. I hope there is enough photographs and information to make such a book possible. I vaguely recall stories of Japanese flying boats being shot down by American bombers and floatplanes in the Pacific also, so perhaps they could be included also. “26th August 1941 – a Hurricane of No 261 Sqn bags a Hawker Persian Audax over Iran.” Way, way off topic here but after reading this and doing a quick internet search, I think the UK/USSR invasion of Iran in 1941 would make a good Campaign title.
Posted on: 21/06/2013 20:44:00
Posted by: DAZ REICH
Total Posts: 69
Joined Date: Monday, 25 February 2013
Don't worry about being an 'off topic tart' on one of my posts lol, some of my best ideas come from reading other peoples posts then something just clicks in the old grey matter.
Posted on: 21/06/2013 21:03:00
Posted by: Captn Tommy
Total Posts:
Joined Date: Saturday, 20 April 2019
Since my father had a duel with a FW-200, with him the pilot of a PB4Y-1 (B-24) in June 1944. I have a bit of interest in such a title, .... BUT I would suggest the title be a campaign title "Aerial anti-Uboat Campaign in the Bay of Biscay 1940 -1944" then you have sunderland, Catalinas, Liberators, Ju-88A &C, FW200, Ju290, Beauforts and Beaufighters, and a good tale all around. Enjoy
Posted on: 25/07/2013 18:45:00

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